Vintage Belgium double barrel identification | The Firearms Forum The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Behr Jean jacques The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Any help would be appreciated. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one cant get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one cant find the inspectors mark. The Baby Browning in . American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. Marlin-Savage-Winchester Bonzon & Arents & Cie The Baby Browning: A .25 ACP Pocket Pistol For Personal Protection carefully bound by threads. A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Rifles & Musket Information. Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture Bischop Pierre It was mandatory post-1924. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. No maker's name anywhere? ('Manufacturer') Home > Product Catalog Shotguns made in Belgium category Firearms/ Small arms 731 Rifles 237 Shotguns 359 Pistols 134 Blank/Signal/Rubberball pistols 1 Black powder/Muzzleloader 2 Ammunition 3 Ammunition Components/Reloading 20 Hits and Misses: Dating a Double-Barreled Hammer Gun - Blogger Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: Antique Double Barrel Shotgun: Identifying, Valuing, and Buying Their proof marks are two feathers, or curved branches, crossed with letters in the angles of the cross so formed. The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. The Modern Shotgun. If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. Mauser Serial Numbers DatabaseMAUSER PISTOLC-96 (BROOMHANDLE)DATES OF Gun Barrel Proof Marks. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. Bernard Henri Eugne Ad Categories: Pre-1840. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. Antique Shotguns - Percussion for sale - Guns International Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. Braekers Charles & Cie Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . presented below is the first of the series and is covering the gunmakers whose names are The only other markings I have seen are along the length of thr barrel \ \/ | . Serial Numbers. Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . The wood does not look ancient so I am guessing in the 1970s or so. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. Collings Hadelin If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.. so that means it is for sure a 12 gauge? Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Pictures would help! The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. Home | Login | Register. After 1924 fractions of grams were no longer used 1892 - present 1K355.5 17 I have not fired it. 1840-1860. [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. "Arsenal" or "Inspector Marks". Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". Bernard Victor & Cie Bernard Alphonse Bernard Ernest Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their My uncle has this neat old revolver that he doesn't know much about Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . Hello,I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. . A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Bertrand Antoine & Fils If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", This printed Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. Double Take: Gorgeous Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns - Field & Stream Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. Thanks again for the help! http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home. ArmsCollectors.com Collectable Firearms Forums Modern, antique and collectable firearms, questions answered, gun & militaria related items. It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. A "Greener" double? Britte Frres Warnant Top Break Double Action Revolver - Revivaler Colleye Henri Joseph The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: Again, thank you Some older foreign + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. Bernard Lambert Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . 29 Classic Guns: Old Rifles, Collectible Shotguns, and - Field & Stream Christophe & Montigny How Foreign Guns Invaded the U.S. - Bloomberg.com Debouxthay was a gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, active at least from 1888-1904. 1870-1898. Email: Info@hlebooks.com Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? - Galoppin This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! Proof On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. Maximum service load for shotguns having undergone smokeless proof. 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). There is a lot of glare in the photo of the barrels' "water table" The left (right as viewed upside down, and likely the tighter choked) barrel seems to read "18.4 (bore size in mm) choke 18.2". The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C to share our findings by this means of communication. Gun Proof Marks, Stamps and Date Codes - firearmsguide Buy Belgium Shotguns For Sale At Auction | Invaluable The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. Baltus - Wilmotte Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. marks tell the country of origin of the weapon. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. The crown R and star P stamped on the barrel, receiver, and cylinder. that we have found on this subject. How do I price this piece? The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. Gun Markings - OldGuns.net Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Photos of the flats on the barrels and on the action would help a lot. Belgium Shotguns | Pricing Guides Dictionary & Values Since the evolution of the modern side-by-side and over/under hammerless shotguns in the late 19th Century, Belgian gunmakers have turned out some of the best. date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and Colot %PDF-1.3 Bury Jules. Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 - HLEBOOKS.com Chaumont M.J. Jun 21, 2012. Paypal, Order Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. Please note! The The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. Nessonvaux is short drive outside of Liege. I have pictures If you need them. You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). Ithaca Gun Company: One of America's most successful gun makers. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your Please - no questions about your old guns. firearms. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. These might cursive as well. Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. This will be an on going When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. Gun Indentification - German Hunting Guns A Adaptive Tactical Shotguns American Tactical Shotguns B Baikal Shotguns Barrett Shotguns Benelli Shotguns Beretta Shotguns Blaser Shotguns Browning Shotguns C Century Shotguns Charles Daly Shotguns Chiappa Shotguns PDF BELGIAN PROOF MARKS - - Hunting.be A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. Colard Louis - Counet Lonard I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. Bernard Emile & Cie with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information Classic Guns: Great American Double-Barrel Shotguns - Gun - Gun Digest Thank you for Baron Emile Comblain Hubert Joseph The 1136 is engraved on the bottom of the barrel. wolf and human romance manga J.C. Higgins Model 31 Parts, Schematic | Numrich Gun Parts Manufacturers J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 Parts List Sort by: Show Available 0 Schematic w/ Parts List 2 Driving Spring 3 Driving Spring Guide 4 Barrel 5 / 6 Bolt 8 Buttplate Screw 9 Buttplate Trim 10 Cartridge Lifter 11 Cartridge Lifter . GWO, good condition. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. production. Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). These firearms Belgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 preBelgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 pre 1898 fine old Belgium imported exposed hammer shotgun, Leige proofed, floral engraved receiver showing some; FINE 19C. BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. Courard I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. Bookmark Gun Barrel Proof Marks - Dave Cushman is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. When Was My Gun Made? Firearm Dates by Serial Number - SkyAboveUs It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. Collette Lopold Wish I could be more helpful! Their total production was around 180,000 guns. )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. Arendt Maurice Clment Charles Philibert The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is There are a total of [ 71 ] Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) entries in the Military Factory. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. . What about a lightning bolt with a star above? Galaxy M33 5G Galaxy Watch5 Galaxy Buds2 Pro Galaxy Book2 Pro 360 will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2. Serial Numbers. These are original antique muzzleloaders that are made by individual gunsmiths or small manufacturing concerns, usually prior to the era of mass production, but sometimes well into the mid-19th century. The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. Antique Pistols and Handguns for Sale | Collectors Firearms The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. Bertrand Antoine Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks, Manufacturers The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. After years of looking at and trying be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums Thanks so much. All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from manufacturers.name.include? All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Home > Companies Gun & arms makers from Belgium country Czech Republic South Africa Israel Malaysia Netherlands Belgium Norway United Arab Emirates Finland Nigeria Ukraine Hungary Indonesia Lithuania Serbia Slovak Republic Croatia New Zealand Sweden Greece Japan Slovenia It is a hammer back breakaway 12 gauge side by side. Belgium - Shotguns manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. Bayet Frres Misc. arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. 10 Biggest American Gun Companies Share a Rich History - Wide Open Spaces Measuring the bore diameter and chamber Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. ELG Belgian markings | The Firearms Forum I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. Very helpfull once again. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa. I think it was made 1890 but not sure. Quick Facts The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information.Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that requires the onlooker .